The Upside-Down Kingdom - Choosing Obscurity Over Fame

Jul 1

Episode Summary

In this episode, we interview Rob Wegner and talk about the contrasting paradigms of leadership as exemplified by Jesus and the prevalent models in American churches. We explore everything from the dangers of volunteerism that leads to a domesticated version of mission, the temptation of leadership roles, and the importance of choosing obscurity over fame. We also highlight the significance of being rooted in community and the transformative power of ordinary people in the mission of the church.

Key Themes & Takeaways

1. Why This Conversation Matters

American church culture often elevates charisma, strategy, and platform—leading to spiritual abuse, burnout, and consumerism.
Movements of the gospel globally reflect a radically different leadership paradigm—humble, obscure, decentralized.

2. Rob’s Story: From Megachurch to Movement

Rob shares the pivotal moment when, after returning from India, he realized that the Western model was spiritually stifling.
While leading a church of 7,000, Rob was offered the lead pastor role—but chose to walk away and pursue a movement model, inspired by the ordinary, Spirit-led leaders he met in India like Martha, a former stay-at-home mom and network leader of house churches.

3. The Seduction of the Stage

Rob and Brian unpack the cultural temptation to elevate gifted leaders and create celebrity pastors.
The platform is not neutral—it’s often toxic. Both pastors and people feed off one another in unhealthy ways.

4. The Way of Jesus: Nazareth and Obscurity

Jesus spent 90% of His life in obscurity in Nazareth. That silence and hiddenness matter.
“Obscurity isn’t failure. Margins aren’t a mistake. Delay isn’t denial.” True leadership grows in hidden, faithful spaces.

5. Reframing Leadership Through Movements

Jesus resisted platforms and fame. He withdrew to be with the Father.
Global movements thrive by raising ordinary people to live like Jesus—not by centering one person on a stage.

6. Leadership in Decentralized Networks

Rob breaks down the biblical framework of elders and apostolic teams:
- Elders = spiritual mothers and fathers embedded in extended spiritual families.
- Apostolic teams = agile, catalytic, servant-hearted multipliers—not micromanagers.
Shared leadership is vital: “Don’t facilitate every week. Don’t host everything. Don’t make yourself the center.”

7. Why We Talk About 'Ordinary People'

The language of “ordinary” is intentionally subversive, meant to dismantle the clergy/laity divide.
In the Kingdom, we’re all beloved, Spirit-empowered image bearers. No one is more extraordinary than anyone else.

Final Thoughts

We must be ruthlessly committed to leadership in the way of Jesus: hidden, humble, and handed-off. Whether leading a microchurch or shaping a network, the path of downward mobility and shared authority is essential for reproducing disciples and sustaining healthy movement. The manger still matters—and so does Nazareth.